Latvia vs Lithuania Debating Championship, Morgoth was a Poor Strategist Opcijas

[Elk]

International Champtionship Debate #1

Welcome to the first International Debate between the Latvians and the Lithuanians! I am Elk, the judge of this competition; if you are from the Plaza, you will (currently) know me as Túrin. To start, here are the topic official rules:

===========================

Morgoth was a poor strategist.

Teams

Each country has a team. In the team they have an equal number of main debaters (starters) and an unlimited number of subs. Teams select their captain, who will write the opening post for the team.

Starting the Debate

1. The judge decides on the topic of the debate and announces it in the debate thread. The teams have one week for preparation.
2. After a week, the time counting starts and the proposition team (the hosting team) is expected to post their opening statement within time limit.

The Debate
1. No IC, therefore no ‘spectators’ allowed. All out-of-context posts should be deleted without warning.
2. No editing of posts allowed.
3. After the judge has posted the topic and before posting their first posts, the team captains should post their rosters.
4. The teams post Prop, Op, Prop, Op…
5. It is up to the teams how they organize their arguments, but there are certain rules to be sticked to:

Prop 1st post, Op 1st post
Aim: Outlining Proposing/Opposing team's main arguments. Backing them up as much as space allows. The Opposing team cannot rebutt the arguments put forward in the Proposing team’s first post.
Prop 2nd, Op2nd (also 3rd) Aims: Backing up previously outlined arguments. Rebutting opposing teams arguments. Introducing new arguments. Only two rebuttals allowed in one team’s post. Opponent’s rebuttals can be rebutted.
Prop closing statement, Op closing statement
(Preferably written by the team captain) Aim: Enforce team's arguments. It may be done by summarizing your arguments, by rebutting the last rebuttals of the opponent or in some other way, but no new rebuttals can be made.

6. Colour codes may be used by the team to organize their posts. In this case, the codes should be posted at the beginning of each post. This section is not included in the word count.
7. Rebuttals should be separated from the main arguments. The team may choose whether to include headings “Main argument”, “Closing statement” etc., but headings “Rebuttal #1”, “Rebuttal #2” are required for the purpose of separation.
8. Time limit for the post to appear in the thread is 48 hours. In case a sub is called (which should be done openly in the thread), another 8 hours are added to the time remaining on the clock. The judge is expected to inform the debaters about the date and time their post is due.
9. Word limit is 2000 words for each main post and 500 words for the Closing Statement, excluding colour codes and all the formatting codes, including Headings and quotes.

Judgment

Every post (except the closing statements) is rated in the following categories, 5 point scale (5 - outstanding, 4 -very good, 3-ok, 2-somewhat lacking 1-poor 0-nonexistant)

*Creativity
*Staying on topic
*Team spirit/team unity
*Organisation (how easy it is to follow the author's thought)
*Choice of arguments and rebuttal points.

Plus, each team is rated in the following categories:

*Overall strategy (how well posts were organized to allocage enough space for arguments and rebuttals. How well the chances to rebut opponents arguments and rebuttals were used)
*Overall choice of arguments and rebuttal points
*Strength of the Closing Statement

===========================

To expand a bit on how I'd be judging - the rules are pretty straightforward: The first poster should introduce a number of arguments and support them as thoughroughly as s/he can, the second poster should continue in like fashion, and the 3rd should come in as a 'sweeper' and tie any loose ends, solidify any arguments that might need more support, etc. A strong, authoritative ending should also be included.

But to elaborate on my personal style: I think there are two part of debate, one is logic, the other is passion. Logic is important, I want to see you fully reason out your points. But the other is passion, get into your words, make be believe that you are utterly convinced of their truth. That is the essense of debate, to me. In every one that I have been in, I still believe the side that I argued no matter of the outcome (or maybe it's because I'm stubborn (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/tongue.gif) ).

The first post is due 48 hours from this post. I'm looking forward to it!

(PS: I'm sorry for being late with this, it totally slipped my mind!)

Šo rakstu rediģēja Elk: 27.02.2005 21:26

[agronoms]

First I want to thank our Judge for shedding some light from above on Melkor – Morgoth issue. If he thinks that these two are essentially the same, we happily agree because such an interpretation makes it even easier for us to prove our point.

_______________________________________________________________


Good evening everyone. I apologize for being late. Here is our third post!

Our first argument was that Morgoth was a poor strategist because he never reached his goal. While it is still debatable if a person can be called poor strategist just because of that, because there are examples in real life of really great strategists who never reached their ultimate goal (our opponents mentioned Napoleon, for example), we must remind everyone that Morgoth cannot be judged on the same grounds as everyone else and even less as anyone else in real life. First, he is Ainu – offspring of Eru’s thought. He was there before Arda was brought into being, he was the greatest created being and second greatest of all (after Eru). As such he is in the essence invincible, he cannot diminish himself unintentionally. Second – in Arda he is Vala. He can’t die in Arda unless the World itself perishes. And in Arda he is in fact the most powerful being of all. Yet, in the end of Silmarillion he is utterly defeated. Even more – he is defeated by Children of Iluvatar alone, unaided by the Valar (unless permission to go to war can be called “aid”). It seems that all Morgoth’s actions in his life were moving in a more or less downward spiral. One doesn’t have to be a good strategist to remain at somewhat constant level in one’s lifetime if the circumstances are good. But if a person can fall from everything to nothing while circumstances are in every aspect more than favourable to him (and I think that we proved that more than necessary, because it is quite obvious to anyone who has read Ainulidale that without Eru’s help all other Ainur are lost if Melkor – Morgoth decides to act against them), there can be no doubt that this person is a very very very poor strategist. It almost seems that being a poor strategist was part of his nature.
P.S.
And if it really was the best he was capable of (as our dear Lithuanian friends told in the conclusion of their second post) it almost makes me want to show some pity for Morgoth.

_______________________________________________________________


Our second argument was about intelligence and planning issues. As we stated previously, Morgoth paid too little (if any) attention to information gathering and after that he paid even less attention to the information he had gathered. We have not found any explicit statement in the books of our beloved professor that Morgoth had poor memory (and if there was one, it would be sufficient argument to call him a poor strategist), so we must conclude that Morgoth’s ignorance was deliberate. Now we could stop here and say that any deliberately ignorant person (in other words – a self-content fool) must be a poor strategist and there is no need for further discussion but we would still like to add a few things to make our argument even more solid than the fastness of Mandos.
As we said – our argument goes that Morgoth paid little attention to information gathering. While there might be situations where information is of no avail, there was some things that he should have comprehended in order to succeed. The first one is explained in our second post by Nimue (the interference from the West which should have been expected by Morgoth but was not), so I will concentrate on the other one. In the very first pages of Silmarillion we can read about Ainulindale – the Music of Ainur (we would have quoted it before but we were not sure if Melkor is Morgoth). I will not quote all the text here, only the most important place.

The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.

The very piece of information that, if Morgoth had remembered it, would have changed the course of history of Arda beyond recognition (well, yes, this is a speculation, but it is well-founded). Quite foolish of him to forget the Music of the Ainur. A true sign of a poor strategist – failure to distinguish the most vital information (is there any information more vital to anyone than that which comes from The One?).

I will also insert some sub-argument here. Morgoth was too slow to comprehend the lessons learned from his own battles and didn’t use the information he had even for short term advantages. He saw the effectiveness of Cirdan’s fleet. He saw the effectiveness of Eldarin riders. Yet all he did was counter them with Orcs and Balrogs. However after several centuries of no visible success it at last dawned on him

that the Orcs unaided were no match for the Noldor (Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor)

and he begun to work on some new weapon (of course, it would be too much to ask of him to show himself forth so doubling or even more multiplying his armies’ strength). And after hundred years his weapon appeared - first of the Urulóki, the fire-drakes of the North – Glaurung. Some accomplishment indeed. It took less time for Saruman to breed himself an army of 10000 Uruk-Hai – a better variant of Orcs.


_______________________________________________________________


Our third argument that was brought forth in our second post by Nimue is about importance of defense. We are still confident that the lack of proper defense was cruicial to Morgoth ultimate defeat. I will once more emphasize that Morgoth was capable of creating a proper defense line against the only real threat – the west. Our examples still remain the same – the Iron mountains, the Mountains of mist and Thangorodrim and they are undeniable. There was no excuse (except, perhaps, poor memory or deliberate ignorance) for not creating a proper defense on the coast of Belegaer and Angband was not a proper defense. Nor was Hithaeglir which he raised to hinder Orome before the first age. What kind of weird thinking is that? Of course, we can only guess what Morgoth was thinking, but it seems to be something along the lines “Hmm, I see that one of my pity enemies is riding across my lands and killing my servants at will. Hey! I could raise some mountains to slow him down a bit! You know, just like those that my enemies raised around their land in the west, only smaller, so that he could get over them.” Or maybe he was simply deliberately ignorant (again) or simply did it so that it would seem that he did something about it, showing no characteristics of a good strategist either way.

_______________________________________________________________

The fourth argument of our team is that Morgoth risked too much. I want to remind you that while in a card game you risk all the time, there is still a difference between reckless risk and clever and justified risk. We agree with our opponents that a clever and justified risk can be a sign of a good strategy, but we are confident that Morgoth never showed his risk assessing abilities in a positive way. And one can easily undestand why this was so. Morgoth never risked with his own well being and if he did, he did it unintentionally (and that is a sign of a poor strategist – no foreseeing risks), for example, when Ungolianth overcame him and only by the help of Balrogs he was able to break free. He only risked with the lives of his servants and he didn’t even take loss of them to heart because he didn’t care if they died and made him weaker with their unneeded passing. Which again proves the statement that Morgoth was a poor strategist – wasting his forces just like that.

_______________________________________________________________

Conclusion

As you can see, dear readers and honorable Judge, we have studied Tolkien’s works and learned quite a few things about Morgoth:
All his life Morgoth went from more to less. From freedom he descended into Ea to which he was afterwards bound. From dominion of Arda he went to dominion of Middle-earth only. After dominion of Middle-earth he was imprisoned by beings formerly weaker than him. After that lies were his only refuge. Then his lies were discovered he had to flee and continue his existence in the darkest place of the world while continuously battling even lesser creatures than Valar. And after long years of fruitless battles he was beaten by those same creatures that he despised and hated and was cast out this world.
A little real life comparison springs into mind. Imagine that you have more money than everyone else in the world combined. This money is yours and no one can take it from you by force, only you yourself can spend it. And then you invest that money in many questionable ventures and grow poorer and poorer until you are bankrupted by a group of stock brokers. Are you then a poor economist or what?

_______________________________________________________________

Rebuttal

We agree with our opponents that the term “strategy” is applicable not only to the policies that one designs for achieving his ultimate goal but also to shorter term goals. Yet one must understand that terms “long-term goals” and “short-term goals” are also subjective in regard to the person one refers to. We think that “long term” is essentially the same as “in my lifetime” which in Morgoth’s case means “ever”. On these basis we must also judge the term “short term”. In this case it certainly can not be confined to one battle, no matter how large.

[YaWorm]

Colour code:

Spoken words – Black;
Emphasis (Spoken words) – black underlined;
Quotes – Green;
Quotes’ source – Green, Italics;
Emphasis (Quotes) – green underlined;
Opponents’ words – Orange

Opposition Main Post #3 (LTDK)

Opening Arguments

I salute everyone who has gathered here to watch this debate. Greetings, our esteemed Judge Elk and our opponents from Latvia. We have come here to argue if Morgoth was a poor strategist. I, same as everyone in my team, firmly believe that Morgoth was not a poor strategist. To prove this, I will present few new arguments in my speech. Firstly, I will provide some new definitions that should help to better understand the topic of this debate. After this I will look at two great battles of the First Age: the Battle of Sudden Flame and the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

Main Arguments

As I will be speaking about the battles of the First Age, I’d like to remind you some definitions and give some new ones.

Rebuttal

Nuluk has said:
Our team is confident that:
Strategy = the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal
(Webster dictionary) […]
We would also like to emphasize, that is is crucial to understand the difference between "strategy" and the term very similar and therefore often mistaken for perfect synonym, yet rather distinct in meaning - "Tactic".
Tactic = a method of implying forces in combat
(Webster dictionary)

I must say that you have supported your side very well, BUT… This term doesn’t mean only one’s ability to devise good plans towards a goal. Let me give you full definition of the same word from the same dictionary:

Strategy:

1 a (1) : the science and art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war (2) : the science and art of military command exercised to meet the enemy in combat under advantageous conditions b : a variety of or instance of the use of strategy
2 a : a careful plan or method : a clever stratagem b : the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal
3 : an adaptation or complex of adaptations (as of behavior, metabolism, or structure) that serves or appears to serve an important function in achieving evolutionary success (Merriam-Webster Dictionary Online, http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...ary&va=strategy, my emphasis )

As you can see, the term ‘strategy’ has much broader meaning than that stated by our honourable opponents. Therefore, we think that the fact that Melkor didn’t achieve his final goal is not enough to say that he was a poor strategist.

End of Rebuttal

Now here is another definition that I wanted to present before moving on my other arguments:

Poor

1 a : lacking material possessions b : of, relating to, or characterized by poverty
2 a : less than adequate : MEAGER b : small in worth
3 : exciting pity <you poor thing>
4 a : inferior in quality or value b : HUMBLE, UNPRETENTIOUS c : MEAN, PETTY (ibid, http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...tionary&va=poor )

So, if we agree that Morgoth was a poor strategist, we must agree that his skills were ‘less than adequate’. But I shall never say so! Morgoth showed a great skill when forcing his enemies to distrust each other (like in the case with the Elves) and separate from each other. The latter was perfectly done in the Battles of Beleriand. As we all know, after the Dagor Aglareb, the princes of the Noldor have set the Siege of Angband. But because of the strategic skills or Morgoth it was broken in

Dagor Bragollach

In my opinion, this battle (along with Nirnaeth Arnoediad) was one of the best examples of Morgoth’s strategic abilities. First thing he did, he set forth, when ‘the watch-fires burned low, and the guards were few; on the plain few were waking in the camps of the horsemen of Hithlum’ (The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin). He used the factor of surprise very well here. But you cannot say that he wasn’t prepared for this battle. In the Silmarillion it is said:

For Morgoth had long prepared his force in secret, while ever the malice of his heart grew greater, and his hatred of the Noldor more bitter; and he desired not only to end his foes but to destroy also and defile the lands that they had taken and made fair. And it is said that his hate overcame his counsel, so that if he had but endured to wait longer, until his designs were full, then the Noldor would have perished utterly. (The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin)

One could say that the last sentence of this quote proves that Morgoth was a poor strategist. But I don’t agree that it does so. Morgoth didn’t have the gift of foresight and he could not tell at that time that he needed more strength. It became clear only after some time. I am sure that if Morgoth could see the future, he would have prepared a greater army. And yet, this army was greater than the Noldor ever imagined. Don’t believe me? Let me give you a proof from the Silmarillion itself:

Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim, and poured over all the plain; and the Mountains of Iron belched forth fires of many poisonous hues, and the fume of them stank upon the air, and was deadly. […]Thus began the fourth of the great battles, Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame.
In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined. (ibid)

Because of the impetuosity of Morgoth’s attack, the Eldar could not help each other and were defeated. And you, our honourable opponents, still say that he was a poor strategist?

Not long after the Dagor Bragollach, the Easterlings have entered Beleriand. Maedhros made an allegiance with them, because he knew that the Eldar are still weak and not ready for another battle if Morgoth strikes again. Later this decision proved wrong, as it was a part of the plan of Morgoth. But I’ll talk about it in another part of my argument.

Nirnaeth Arnoediad

This was the Fifth Battle of the Wars of Beleriand. Before this battle, the Eldar made a union, because they knew that sooner or later Morgoth will strike again.

But Maedhros made trial of his strength too soon, ere his plans were full-wrought; and though the Orcs were driven out of all the northward regions of Beleriand, and even Dorthonion was freed for a while, Morgoth was warned of the uprising of the Eldar and the Elf-friends, and took counsel against them. Many spies and workers of treason he sent forth among them, as he was the better able now to do, for the faithless Men of his secret allegiance were yet deep in the secrets of the sons of Fëanor. (ibid)

And yet, previous deeds of Morgoth didn’t let them to unite all the forces they had. Why was that? I think you remember the Oath of Fëanor? It didn’t let his sons to unite their forces this time. How? For example, King Thingol of Doriath did not wish to give aid to the sons of Fëanor because they’ve tried to take the Silmaril from him, Orodreth did not join the forces because of the previous deeds of Celegorm and Curufin and so on.

Morgoth knew about this union, but he also knew how to use these cross-purposes. He tried to force Fingon’s advance by sending some riders with a body of Gelmir. Here is a quote showing how this strategic move helped him to win the battle:

Then the Captain of Morgoth sent out riders with tokens of parley, and they rode up before the outworks of the Barad Eithel. With them they brought Gelmir son of Guilin, that lord of Nargothrond whom they had captured in the Bragollach; and they had blinded him. Then the heralds of Angband showed him forth, crying: 'We have many more such at home, but you must make haste if you would find them; for we shall deal with them all when we return even so.' And they hewed off Gelmir's hands and feet, and his head last, within sight of the Elves, and left him.
By ill chance, at that place in the outworks stood Gwindor of Nargothrond, the brother of Gelmir. Now his wrath was kindled to madness, and he leapt forth on horseback, and many riders with him; and they pursued the heralds and slew them, and drove on deep into the main host. (ibid)

The hosts of Fingon were drawn forth and the battle began on a time that was not good for the Eldar. It is very possible that Men and Elves would have won the battle if not one thing. As it was said before, Maedhros had made an allegiance with the Easterlings. This was a part of Morgoth’s plans. Once again he had used a powerful weapon of betrayal. The Easterlings have betrayed the Eldar and the battle has been lost.

Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. In this hour the plots of Ulfang were revealed. Many of the Easterlings turned and fled, their hearts being filled with lies and fear; but the sons of Ulfang went over suddenly to Morgoth and drove in upon the rear of the sons of Fëanor, and in the confusion that they wrought they came near to the standard of Maedhros. (ibid)

As it is said in the Silmarillion, the victory in the Nirnaeth was a fulfilment of his plans:

Great was the triumph of Morgoth, and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men, and betrayed the Eldar, and fear and hatred were aroused among those that should have been united against him. From that day the hearts of the Elves were estranged from Men, save only those of the Three Houses of the Edain. (ibid)

Closing statements

I have spoken mainly about two battles: Dagor Bragollach and Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Both of them Morgoth had won, thanks to his strategic abilities. The Battle of Sudden Flame has been won because of the speed of the assault and the fact of surprise. The Battle of Unnumbered Tears has been won because of the great strength of his armies and the treachery of Men. I firmly believe that these facts show that Morgoth was a great strategist. Thank you all for listening.