Slimarillion translations., Common problems in latvian and lithuania Opcijas

[Starlin]

This topic is split from discussion about Silmarillion translation. Please keep the non-latvian part of the discussion here.

Khem (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/cool.gif)

Sorry to butt in (and sorry to be butting in in English - I hardly understood enough Latvian to register here). I am Starlin, and I am Lithuanian. I stumbled on this messageboard accidentally and since it is the first Latvian tolkienian MB (at least half of it) I encounter on the web, I decided to join in. Why and why this thread? Because, as a founder and proud member of the so-far largest Lithuanian tolkienist community (to be found at www.tolkien.tinkle.lt), I also belong to a group which is translating the Sil into Lithuanian. We've encountered many problems (and believe me, one should first consider many things and rules before translating Tolkien - that's what we call "the great system of translation") but now we have got fairly well-translated Ainulindale, Valaquenta and Beren & Luthien (actually, I've got more on my compy, though it hasn't made its way to the messageboard. Yet. And there are some texts which are not from the Sil). It's slow but it's high quality (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/rolleyes_a.gif) So, what am I driving at? First of all, it'd be really great to get to know some Latvian tolkienists (I haven't met many on the net; in fact, only one). Secondly, we'd be glad to share our experience in translating and to find out what problems you encounter while translating.

I hope I don't get banned just because I wrote it in English. Cheers, mellyn!

~Starlin Elvea~

EDIT: if I understand it correctly (mere guess), you've been talking about copyrights. We have our translations on the web, password-protected. That's not against the laws, at least here. The password is guessable, though (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/whistling.gif) But you need to be a tolkienist to guess it anyway (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/laughing.gif)

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Ne gluži tulkojums - bet apmēram:

Piedodiet, ka iejaucos, un daru to angliski. Es esmu Starlins, un esmu lietuvietis. Nejauši atradu šo forumu - un tā kā šis ir pirmais latviešu Tolkīnistu forums (vismaz daļēji), nolēmu pievienoties.
Esmu lielākās Lietuvas Tolkīnistu organizācijas (www.tolkien.tinkle.lt) dibinātājs un biedrs, pie tam piederu grupai, kas nodarbojas ar Silmariliona tulkošanu lietvuski.
Tulkošanas procesā esam saskārušies ar vairākām problēmām (un vispār, pirms sākt tulkot Tolkīnu, jāapsver daudzie noteikumi - ko mēs saucam par "lielo tulkošanas sistēmu) - tomēr, šobrīd esam tīri labi iztulko'juši Ainulindale, Valaquenta un Beren&Luthien (vispar, uz datora man ir vairāk, bet tas vēl nav uz ziņojumu dēļa. Vēl. Ir arī daži citi teksti, kas nav no Silmariliona).
Tas notiek lēni - toties kvalitatīvi. Tātad, ko es cenšos pateikt.
Pirmkārt - būtu jauki iepazīties ar latviešu Tolkīnistiem (līdz šim sanācis sastapt tikai vienu). Otrkārt - būtu jauki padalīties tulkošanas pieredzē un uzzināt, ar kādām problēmām saskaraties jūs.

Ceru, ka mani neizbanos tikai tādēļ, ka rakstu angliski. Cheers, draugi!

~Starlin Elvea~

Šo rakstu rediģēja Nimue: 04.02.2005 17:33

[Nimue]

Welcome to the forum, Indarja!

LotR appendices? Are they translated in a wrong way, or are they not in the official edition?

They are not in the official edition. They have kept the underpage references to the said Appendixes in "Fellowship", but the appendixes themselves are not published.

I guess „cilvēks“ means ‚a human‘, but could you please explain what „sīk-“ is?

"sīkcilvēks" is a compound of "sīks" - adjective, meaning "tiny" and a noun "cilvēks" which you guessed correctly. "sīks" seems to be rather similar to "smulkutis" .
The other word (used in official translation) - "mazļautiņi" is compound from "mazs" (little) and deminutive form of "people". (deminutive - it is like Doggy from Dog. In Latvian we can create such a form for almost every word, however overusage of this form makes the text sound rather childish - which seems to have been the purpose of the official translator - since the target audience were fans of Harry Potter).

So - the first problem with "mazļautiņi" is that such a word might be found in a book about dwarfes and fairies for 4 year olds, not in an epic tale.
Dropping the deminutive, we get "mazļaudis" - it is a legit word of course, but instead of sound like "little people" it sounds like "not enough people". And, it has no singular.


Second - "Little people" is already used in reference to Halflings, and it can be translated only as "mazie ļaudis" (or "mazie cilvēki" - however the first is more accurate) - so if we also pick "mazļaudis" or "mazļautiņi" for "Halflings" we have are narrowing the diversity of descriptions. Therefore we probably should pick something else.

‘neuter gender’ (well, some say there is no such gender in Lithuanian and it should be called differently...). Singular nominative is aina, nolda, vala, maja (plural is ainos, noldos, valos, majos). ‘Neuter’ means these words have feminine-looking endings, but are usually treated as maculine

That might or might not be the same agronoms (and several before him) has suggested. Latvian definetly does not have a neuter gender - only masculine and feminine. However, there are words which are grammatically feminine (except for singular Dativ), but are considered masculine. What you describe sounds similar.
I simply have a personal preference for "r".
Just a question - in Lithuanian do you have female names Aina and/or Maija?



Thank you both very much for correcting my blunderings regarding the characteristics of Lithuanian (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/smile.gif) Seems, Polish in Lithuania has has about the same role German had here.

OK I guess the question right now is... Who is in mood to spend some time editing the portions already translated?

Šo rakstu rediģēja Nimue: 03.02.2005 11:34

[Indraja]

Thank you for explaining these words.

No Appendices? (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/ohmy.gif) We thought having No Maps in our new editions is the worst possible thing...

There are no names Aina or Maja, but there are feminine names Ainė (a rare name, meaning "descendant" (poetical)), Valė (short for Valentina; a little bit old-fashioned). There is Quenya feminine singular nominative Valie. We could have written feminine singular "valė", but the worst thing is we can't make a pair f. "valė" - m. "vala", because 'neuter' nouns do not form such pairs, they are used for both male and female persons. If we want distinctive words, we should use f. "valė" - m. "valas". (Of course, transcribing "valijė" is even more correct, but then it won't be able to make a pair neither with "vala" nor "valas", because such words must have the same stem). Some people do not like "valas", because it is homonymous with a word meaning "fishing-line". All the solutions seem to be far from good, but at the present moment we took a natural-sounding "vala" (unchanged from "Vala"). Anyway, guess people won't be insulted when noticing their names are used for god-like beings.

Tolkien adds the english plural ending (-s) to his Quenya plural words on several occasions (although this form is never used in Silmarillion).

Could you please tell the word and the book? It would be easy to locate it using "find" in a text editor... (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/cool.gif)

Oh, just noticed you are translating those English texts. Sorry for making you work that much. Well, we'll learn Latvian pretty soon in this case, having it in both languages...