Kas ir Numenorieši, es nezinu... Opcijas

[Hikari]

Vai kāds man nevarētu atgādināt vai arī izstāstīt, kas bija numenorieši vai kāviņtur (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/blush.gif) ...es nezinu... (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/unsure.gif) Šķiet, viņus kādreiz pieminēja Elronds... (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/whistling.gif)

[Nulukkizdin]

Lielisks Numenoras vēstures apraksts, Elf! Nav tur vairs daudz ko piebilst! (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/smile.gif) (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/thumbsup.gif)

Tomēr, tā lieta par Numenoras saistību ar Atlantīdu gan ir visai interesanta.. (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/grin.gif) Un tādēļ iesaku turpināt diskusiju tieši par šo tēmu..

Tātad, vai Numenora ir uzskatāma par Atlantīdu???

Ne gluži. Lieta tāda, ka Tolkīns allaž domāja par Atlantīdas leģendu, rakstot savu stāstu par Numenoru, tomēr pati Numenoras leģenda ir rakstnieka paša darinājums.. - par šo faktu es pārliecinājos nedaudz pastudējot Tolkīna vēstules..

Ļoti bieži, rakstot dažādiem cilvēkiem, Tolkīns blakus vārdam "Numenora" piemin arī "Atlantis" (latviski - Atlantīda):

[quote]The Men of the Three Houses were rewarded for their valour and faithful alliance, by being allowed to dwell 'western-most of all mortals', in the great 'Atlantis' isle of Numenóre. (Letter #131)[/quote]
[quote]All through the twilight of the Second Age the Shadow is growing in the East of Middle-earth, spreading its sway more and more over Men – who multiply as the Elves begin to fade. The three main themes are thus The Delaying Elves that lingered in Middle-earth; Sauron's growth to a new Dark Lord, master and god of Men; and Numenor-Atlantis. (Letter #131)[/quote]
[quote]But all the names in Gondor, except for a few of supposedly prehistoric origin, are of Elvish form, since the Numenórean nobility still used an Elvish language, or could. This was because they had been allies of the Elves in the First Age, and had for that reason been granted the Atlantis isle of Numenor. (Letter #144)[/quote]
[quote]...or the Great Isle of Westernesse (Numenor-Atlantis)...(Letter #151)[/quote]
[quote]The particular 'myth' which lies behind this tale, and the mood both of Men and Elves at this time, is the Downfall of Numenor: a special variety of the Atlantis tradition. That seems to me so fundamental to 'mythical history' – whether it has any kind of basis in real history, pace Saurat and others, is not relevant – that some version of it would have to come in. (Letter #154)[/quote]
[quote]So ended Numenor-Atlantis and all its glory. (Letter #156)[/quote]
[quote]My book was never finished, but some of it (the Numenórean-Atlantis theme) got into my trilogy eventually. (Letter #252)[/quote]

Es centos noskaidrot, kas varētu būt mudinājis Tolkīnu tik bieži pieminēt šo te Atlantīdas vārdu, un atradu ko ļoti interesantu.. Izrādās, ka dižo rakstnieku bieži vien mocījuši sapņi (murgi) par lielu vilni, kas brāžas pāri kādai zemei. Tolkīns tūliņ šai sapnī atrada līdzības ar visiem zināmo Atlantīdas leģendu (saprotiet, Tolkīns redzēja tikai sapni.. viņš nevarēja zināt, ka tā ir Atlantīda, viņs redzēja tikai kaut kādu zemi un viļņus, kas brāžas pāri, tomēr tūliņ pats atrada līdzības Atlantīdā un tālāk šī doma iespiedās viņa prātā) un faktiski arī tā radās visa šī te Numenoras ideja:

[quote]I say this about the 'heart', for I have what some might call an Atlantis complex. Possibly inherited, though my parents died too young for me to know such things about them, and too young to transfer such things by words. Inherited from me (I suppose) by one only of my children, though I did not know that about my son until recently, and he did not know it about me. I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields. (I bequeathed it to Faramir.) I don't think I have had it since I wrote the 'Downfall of Numenor' as the last of the legends of the First and Second Age. (Letter #163)[/quote]
[quote]Another ingredient, not before mentioned, also came into operation in my need to provide a great function for Strider-Aragorn. What I might call my Atlantis-haunting. This legend or myth or dim memory of some ancient history has always troubled me. In sleep I had the dreadful dream of the ineluctable Wave, either coming out of the quiet sea, or coming in towering over the green inlands. It still occurs occasionally, though now exorcized by writing about it. It always ends by surrender, and I awake gasping out of deep water. I used to draw it or write bad poems about it. When C. S. Lewis and I tossed up, and he was to write on space-travel and I on time-travel, I began an abortive book of time-travel of which the end was to be the presence of my hero in the drowning of Atlantis. This was to be called Numenor, the Land in the West. (Letter #257)[/quote]
[quote]Of all the mythical or 'archetypal' images this is the one most deeply seated in my imagination, and for many years I had a recurrent Atlantis dream : the stupendous and ineluctable wave advancing from the Sea or over the land, sometimes dark, sometimes green and sunlit. (Letter #276)[/quote]

Nu tad padomāsim vēlreiz... Tolkīns redzējis dīvainus sapņus, kas likuši tam aizdomāties par Atlantīdu un galu galā radījis savu Numenoras leģendu! Skan visai ticami, bet tomēr.. vai tas tā ir?? Pilnīgu un galīgu atbildi, manuprāt, sniedz šie te citāti iz tām pašām Tolkīna vēstulēm:


[quote]Numenor, shortened form of Numenóre, is my own invention, compounded from numē-n, 'going down' (√ndū, nu), sunset. West, and nōre 'land, country' = Westernesse. The legends of Numenóre are only in the background of The Lord of the Rings, though (of course) they were written first, and are only summarised in Appendix A. They are my own use for my own purposes of the Atlantis legend, but not based on special knowledge, but on a special personal concern with this tradition of the culture-bearing men of the Sea, which so profoundly affected the imagination of peoples of Europe with westward-shores. (Letter #227)[/quote]
[quote]Numenor is my personal alteration of the Atlantis myth and/or tradition, and accommodation of it to my general mythology. (Letter #276)[/quote]
[quote]...I really wanted to make, a new version of the Atlantis legend...(Letter #294)[/quote]

Tātad viss ir pavisam skaidrs - Atlantīdai un Numenorai ir konkrēts un pavisam ciešs sakars! Tomēr, Numenoru gluži par Atlantīdu saukt viss nevajadzētu, tā ir Tolkīna izdomāta mītiska zeme ar savu mītisku vēsturi.. Jā, par pamatu ir izmantota Atlantīda, tomēr tikai par pamatu.. Numenora ir Tolkīna fantāzijas auglis! (IMG:http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/style_emoticons/kurb_gaiss/smile.gif)

Šo rakstu rediģēja Nulukkizdin: 03.11.2004 13:04