Pavediena drukājamā versija

Iesūtīja: undomiel ; laiks: 16.10.2005 20:31

GP tulkotājam daudzviet tiešām jākaunas par savu tulkojumu un diezgan dīvainajiem īpašvārdu latviskojumiem (Baggins - Tuntaks, Shire - Daliena utt.) Tādu ir bez skaita. Bet ir arī daži tīri patīkami.
Piemēram, es nezinu, kāda velna pēc vispār jātulko "Bree", bet man vārds "Virpils" liekas piemērots un diezgan labi patīk. Normāli šķiet arī "Vējlauzis". Ir vēl daži tādi.
Kā jums?
Ceru, ka nav vēl šāds pavediens bijis...

Iesūtīja: Good ol' Grim ; laiks: 16.10.2005 20:44

Virpils? Ko pie velna nozīmē Virpils? Kaut kāds saliktenis no "vira" un "pils"? Vējlauzis? Tas tipa Amon Sul bija vai?

Manuprāt nedrīkst tulkot neko. Ja nu vienīgi tos vārdus ko Tolkīns pats ieteica tulkot (lai arī nezinu kāda Morgota pēc viņš tā darīja).

Iesūtīja: saule ; laiks: 16.10.2005 20:49

Nedomāju, ka mūsu tulkotāji ir lasījuši Tolkīna ieteikumus tulkošanai - acīmredzot sevi par visgudriem uzskatīja. Kāpēc man tā liekas ? Vienā no manām grāmatām angļu valodā ir norādīts kā jāizrunā dažādi burti un to savienojumi, bet pat tas tulkojumā nav ievērots

Iesūtīja: Nero ; laiks: 16.10.2005 21:30

jā dažreiz sanāk labi tulkojumi, parasti slikti, bet piekrītu vispārībā grimam, nav vajadzības tulkot (reti kad ir) vietvārdus un tamlīdzīgus vārdus no cittautu daiļliteratūras, jo tāpat mācēsim izlasīt, galu galā arī var skaidrojumu vārdam apakš lapai uzrakstīt. tā mēs vismaz sapratīsim, ko domā cittautieši piemēram, par to pašu GP runājot

Iesūtīja: Cilvēks NGC1313 ; laiks: 16.10.2005 22:22

Nu mums mirstīgajiem jāsamierinās ar visvareno tulkotāju,tikai viņš/a (GP gadījumā sieviete) nav vienīgais,kas to grāmatu paņem priekšā un iztaisa no tās to,ko mēs lasām. Vēl ir tādas piekabes kā literārie redaktori,kas rediģē tekstus.Manuprāt, GP tulkojums un līdz ar to personvārdi un vietvārdi ir mazliet sievišķīgi. Rozā Tolkīns
Daliena ir pilnīgi sviestains gājiens... un Tuntaks... arī!

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 17.10.2005 08:09

Kolmane šos ieteikumus dabūja. Diemžēl, par vēlu - tad, kad lielākā daļa grāmatas pirmās trešdaļas jau bija iztulkota. Un to nepārstrādāja Redaktors iespītējās, un palika pie domas, ka tā ir bērnu grāmata. Bet tā tāda nav!

Cilvēks NGC1313, nē... nav rozā... bet ir bērnišķots. Šķiet, tīšām. Ne velti pielikumi vispār nebija paredzēti tulkot.

Vispār man ir uz 32.lpp ieteikumi vārdu tulkojumiem. Tas tas pats "Guide to the Names in the Lord of the Rings", tikai ar izdevniecības ieteikumu un blakus - manējo ar komentāru. Šie ieteikumi caur LFFB nonāca līdz izdevniecībai, bet lielākā daļa tur arī palika.
Ja kādam tas interesē, varu likt pa gabaliņam te iekšā, lai tauta var izteikties. Tikai, lūdzu, ne vienkāršus komentārus - "man nepatīk!" vai "galīgi garām!". Pamatojumu, lūdzu, kas tieši nepatīk un kā būtu labāk.

Iesūtīja: Aiva ; laiks: 17.10.2005 09:31

Es domāju, ka kaut kas tāds būt pat atsevišķa pavedioena vērts.

Iesūtīja: saule ; laiks: 17.10.2005 09:35

Ieliec gan.

Ziniet es jebkādus pēdējā laika latviskojumus varētu nosaukt par naivismu - labāks vārds prātā nenāk un tildes skaidrojums šim vārdam ( Vienkāršotība, tīšs primitīvisms) tikai pastiprina manu vēlmi lietot šādu apzīmējumu šajā kontekstā.
Bet kāpēc, lai speciāli netulkotu pielikumus bērnišķīgošanas nolūkā ?

P.S. Un runājot par to kas ir un kas nav priekš bērniem

P.S.S. Hobita ilustrācijas mani bērnībā biedēja

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 17.10.2005 11:41

Izmēģināsim izmantot vispirms šo pašu pavedienu! Te tieši par konkrētu vārdu tulkojumiem ir runa.
Labi, tad te būs ievads un pirmie pieci vārdi ar visiem komentāriem. Boldā ir izdevniecības variants, iekavās zaļš manējais un vēl viena komentētāja violets, ja ir.

Guide to the Names in the Lord of the Rings
These Notes on Nomenclature were made by J. R. R. Tolkien to assist translators of the book into other languages. They were composed when only the Swedish and Dutch translations had appeared. They have been revised for publication by Christopher Tolkien. All references to The Lord of the Rings are by volume and page of the Second (Revised) Edition.
The Editor

Nomenclature of The Lord of the Rings
All names not in the following list should be left entirely unchanged in any language used in translation, except that inflexional –s, -es should be rendered according to the grammar of the language.
It is desirable that the translator should read Appendix F in Volume III of The Lord of the Rings and follow the theory there set out. In the original text, English represents the Common Speech of the supposed period. Names that are given in modern English therefore represent names in the Common Speech, often but not always being translations of older names in other languages, especially Sindarin (Grey-Elven). The language of translation now replaces English as the equivalent of the Common Speech; the names in English form should therefore be translated into the other language according to their meaning (as closely as possible).
Most of the names of this type should offer no difficulty to a translator, especially not to one using a language of Germanic origin, related to English: Dutch, German, and the Scandinavian languages; for example Black Country, Battle Plain, Dead Marshes, Snowmane. Some names, however, may prove less easy. In a few cases the author, acting as translator of Elvish names already devised and used in this book and elsewhere, has taken pains to produce a Common Speech name that is both a translation and also (to English ears) a euphonious name of familiar English style, even if it does not actually occur in England. Rivendell is a successful example, as a translation of Grey-elven Imladris ‘Glen of the Cleft’. It is desirable to translate such names, since to leave them unchanged would disturb the carefully devised scheme of nomenclature and introduce an unexplained element without a place in the feigned linguistic history of the period. But of course the translator is free to devise a name in the other language that is suitable in sense and/or topography: not all the Common Speech names are precise translations of those in other languages.
A further difficulty arises in some cases. Names (of places and persons) occur, especially in the Shire, which are not ‘meaningless’, but are English in form (that is, in theory the author’s translation of Common Speech names), containing elements that are in the current language obsolete or dialectal, or are worn-down and obscured in form. (See Appendix F). From the author’s point of view it is desirable that translators should have some knowledge of the nomenclature of persons and places in the languages used in translation, and of words that occur in them that are obsolete in the current forms of those languages, or only preserved locally. The notes I offer are intended to assist a translator in distinguishing ‘inventions’, made of elements current in modern English, such as Riven-dell, Snow-mane, from actual names in use in England, independently of this story, and therefore elements in the modern English language that it is desirable to match by equivalents in the language of translation, with regard to their original meaning, and also where feasible with regard to their archaic or altered form. I have sometimes referred to old, obsolescent, or dialectal words in the Scandinavian and German languages which might possibly be used as the equivalents of similar elements in the English names found in the text. I hope that these references may be sometimes found helpful, without suggesting that I claim any competence in these modern languages beyond an interest in their early history.

Names of Persons and Peoples
Appledore. An old word for 'apple tree' (it survives in English place-names). It should be translated by the equivalent - that is, by a dialectal or archaic word of the same meaning. In Germanic languages this may be a word of the same origin: for example, German (Middle High German) aphalter; Icelandic apuldur; Norwegian, Old Swedish apald.
Ābolkoks (Ābelis, Ābeļi - 'ābols' latviski jau ir pietiekami vecs vārds, 'koks' šķiet lieks)

Baggins. Intended to recall 'bag' compare Bilbo's conversation with Smaug in The Hobbit and meant to be associated (by hobbits) with Bag End (that is, the end of a 'bag' or 'pudding bag' = cul de sac), the local name for Bilbo's house. (it was the local name for my aunt's farm in Worcestershire, which was at the end of a lane leading to it and no further). Compare also Sackville Baggins. The translation should contain an element meaning 'sack, bag'.
Tuntaks (?kāpēc? ja man kāds var paskaidrot, kā šis vārds saistās ar 'somu', 'maisu', 'tarbu', 'ķeseli', 'kabatu' utt. utjpr., tad mēs viņu pieņemam, ja ne, tad mūsu ieteikums ir 'Kuldaki' - no 'kule'='kulda'(novec.); 'kule' pēc etimoloģijas ir vistuvāk 'bag') (varēja būt labāk. Tā kā šis vārds nav tik nozīmīgs, var arī palikt.)

Banks. Clearly a topographical name containing 'bank' in the sense 'steep slope or hill side'. It should be represented by something similar.
Krastelis (Krastainis, citādi par daudz lietuviski skan) (varbūt Krasti)

Barrow wights. Creatures dwelling in a 'barrow' (grave mound); see Barrow under Place names. It is an invented name: an equivalent should be invented. The Dutch translation has grafgeest 'grave ghost'; the Swedish has Kummelgast 'gravemound ghost'.
Miroņrēgi (der)
Beechbone. This is meant to be significant, being a translation into the Common Speech of some Entish or Elvish equivalent. It should be translated similarly (for example as Buchbein, or probably better Buchenbein?).

Big Folk, Big People. Translate.
Lamzaki, dižļautiņi / mazļautiņi (der) (Brrrr Vai tiešām šie vārdi tekstā ir izsmejoši? Diži un ļautiņi ir pretstati)

Iesūtīja: Good ol' Grim ; laiks: 17.10.2005 15:35

Ābolkoks - ja atmestu koku, tad vairs nesanāktu atbilstoši. Domāju, ka sekojot ieteikumam Ābolkoks ir labākais variants.

Krastelis - Ja angliski ir Banks, tad latviski jābūt Krasti un nekā citādi. Jebkādu piedēkļu iespraušana tikai padara vārdu bērnišķīgāku un tā ir galvenā tulkojuma problēma.

Miroņrēgi - Der??? Lieku salikteņu veidošana jau atkal pastiprina bērnišķīgumu. Imo daudz labāks variants būtu "kapu rēgi". "Kapa bedres rēgi" jau skanētu pārāk dumji.

Lamzaki, dižļautiņi - Tas pats. Kādēļ nevar būt "lielie ļaudis"? Un kā jau otrais komentētājs norādīja, izklausās izsmejoši, bez tam jau ATKAL pastiprina bērnišķīgumu.

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 18.10.2005 07:56

Ar ābolkoku ir tāda vaina, ka tā parasti latviski nesaka. Ābele ir zināms izņēmums. Bet, vispār, perotams, var tā būt.

Par Krasteli piekrītu. Pilnīgi nesaprotu, priekš kam -elis piekabināts.

Miroņrēgi. Tur ir problēma. Rēgi, spoki miroņu izskatā, bet kapu tur nav. Arī kapsētas nav. Ir kurgāni, ir vietas, kur ir bijis daudz kritušo, vai rēgi ir iemitinājušies pēc nāves, bet miruši pilnīgi citur. Tāpēc kapu nav īsti labs, lai arī tiešā tulkojumā tā sanāk.

Lamzaki - tā hobiti sauc cilvēkus. No sava viedokļa, protams. Un tā ir palama.

_____________________________

Nākamie 5 vārdi:

Black Captain, Black One, Black Riders. Translate.
Melnais Vadonis, Melnais, Melnie Jātnieki

Bolger. See Budgeford.
Buncis, Fredegars : Fatty Bolger - Bunču Ķiļķens (teikts netulkot, bet 'Boldžers' latviski neskan... varētu palikt 'Buncis')

Bounders. Evidently intended to mean 'persons watching the bounds (that is, boundaries)'. This word exists in English, and is not marked as obsolete in dictionaries, though I have seldom heard it used; probably because the late nineteenth century slang 'bounder' an offensively pushing and ill bred man was for a time in very general use, and soon became a term of contempt equivalent to 'cad'. It is a long time since I heard it, and I think it is now forgotten by younger people. The Dutch translation uses Poenen 'cads', probably because a well known dictionary only gives patser 'bounder, cad' as the meaning of bounder (labelled as slang). In the text the latter sense is meant to be recalled by English readers, but the primary functional sense to be clearly understood. (This slender jest is not, of course, worth imitating, even if possible).
Robežnieki (der)

Bracegirdle. A genuine English surname; used in the text, of course, with reference to the hobbit tendency to be fat and so to strain their belts. A desirable translation would recognize this by some equivalent meaning Tight belt, or Belt tightener / strainer / stretcher. (The name is a genuine English one; a compound of the Romance type with the verbal element first, as in Drinkwater = Boileau; but it is not necessary that the representation should be a known surname in the language of translation. Would not Gfirtelspanner do?)
Jozāns ('Stīpāns' labāk, citādi ir asociācija ar 'jozt' 'skriet' nozīmē, nevis 'uzlikt jostu')

Brandybuck. A rare English name which I have come across. Its origin in English is not concerned; in The Lord of the Rings it is obviously meant to contain elements of the Brandywine River and the family name Oldbuck (see these entries). The latter contains the word 'buck' (animal): either Old English bucc 'male deer' (fallow or roe), or bucca 'he goat'.
       Buckland is also meant to contain the same animal name (German Bock), though Buckland, an English place-name, is frequently in fact derived from 'book land', land originally held by a written charter.
Bricbrandaks, Bricava ('Brandibrici', kaut 'buku' jau arī var atstāt, nozīme ir tā pati, kas gribēta)

Iesūtīja: Hals_Devins ; laiks: 18.10.2005 13:13

man pasam bijatāda nesakarība ,bet es sev k-ko loģisku paskaidroju...

tā tad Shire/Daliena

Kā anglisi ir dalīties/dalīt utt.
Izruna un nozīme tad sanak vien tas kas iztulkots...tā tad Daliena

Grozi kā gribi iztulkots ir ļoti labi...un ir taču tas fakts ka lotr nevar iztulkot tieši kā angliski tas ticis ragstīts...tur jau tā sāls...

Iesūtīja: Viesis ; laiks: 18.10.2005 16:27

Tu gadienā neesi saputrojis kaut ko ļoti smagi?
Shire ir šīra - Lielbritānijā lieto kā sinonīmu grāfistei/apriņķim(piem. Jorkšīra)
Share gan ir dalīties, bet tam nav nekāda sakara ar Tolkīna aprakstīto vietu.
Līdz ar to, nāksies pagaidīt, kad tiks līdz konkrētajam vārdam

Žetons par šo ideju un tulkojumu iztirzāšanu Rovielai!

Iesūtīja: saule ; laiks: 18.10.2005 18:07

Un kāpēc tad netulkojot būtu Boldžers - var rakstīt arī Bolgers vai Bolgs (ja nepatīk tas er) ?

Iesūtīja: smukaa elfu princese arwena ; laiks: 18.10.2005 19:05

man patiik, visi shie latviskotie salikteni, tie kaut kaa to tekstu padara maajiigaaku un latviskaaku kaut kaa personiigaaku shaadi man patikk labaak, nekaa tad ja shie tulkojumi buutu kokaini un taadi nemiilami t.i. neiztulkoti....

iisti nemaz nemaaku paskaidrot savas sajuutas

Iesūtīja: Good ol' Grim ; laiks: 18.10.2005 19:15

Buncis, Bunču Ķiļķens - Ja teikts netulkot, tad NETULKOT! Buncis... nu patiešām, kur ir problēma fonētiski pārrakstīt - Boldžers? Vai ja tas dž tik ļoti griež ausīs - Bolgers.

Tas, kas man visvairāk nepatīk tulkojumā ir tas, ka vārdi skan izsmējīgi un nereti nav saprotams, kurš tulkojuma vārds atbilst kuram oriģinālā. Neuzskatu, ka grāmata vispār būtu jātulko, bet tas jau ir cits stāsts.

Bricbrandaks, Bricava - sviests kubā. Neskan neko labāk par tuntaku un kāds gan zilbei "bric" sakars ar briežiem?
Domāju, ka Brendibuks un Bukzeme būtu krietni atbilstošāki varianti.

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 19.10.2005 09:33

'Bric'? Ar tādu skaņkopu apzīmē brieža lēcienu tāpat kā zaķa vai truša

Labi, nākamā kaudzīte:

Brockhouse. Brock is an old word for the badger, still widely current in country speech up to the end of the nineteenth century and appearing in literature, and hence in good dictionaries, including bilinguals. So there is not much excuse for the Dutch and Swedish translators' having misrendered it. In the Dutch translation Broekhuis (not a misprint, since it is repeated in the four places where this name occurs) seems absurd: what is a 'breech house'? The Swedish Galthus 'wild boar house' is not much better, since swine do not burrow! The translator evidently did not know or look up brock, since he uses Grävlingar for the name Burrows (Swedish gräflingar gräfsvin 'badgers').
       Brock occurs in numerous place names, from which surnames are derived, such as Brockbanks. Brockhouse is, of course, feigned to be a hobbit name because the 'brock' builds complicated and well ordered underground dwellings or 'setts'. The German rendering should be Dachsbau, I think. In Danish use Graevling.
Āpšals (Āpšalnieki, ja par dzimtu runa)

Butterbur. So far as I know, not found as a name in England, though Butter is so used, as well as combinations (in origin place names) such as Butterfield. These have in the tale been modified, to fit the generally botanical names of Bree, to the plant name 'butterbur' (Petasites vulgaris) If the popular name for this contains an equivalent of 'butter', so much the better. Otherwise use another plant-name containing 'butter' (as German Butterblurne, Butterbaum, Dutch boterbloeme) or referring to a fat thick plant. The butterbur is a fleshy plant with a heavy flower head on a thick stalk, and very large leaves.
       Butterbur's first name Barliman is simply an altered spelling of 'barley' and 'man' (suitable to an innkeeper and ale brewer), and should be translated.
Kviesmīlis Purēns (pie kam te kvieši? 'barley' ir mieži, no tiem arī alu dara , iesakām angļu vārdu 'Mouzis', tas ir pietiekami tuvu miežiem, un 'butterbur' ir 'blusukārkliņš', to vēl varētu saukt arī par 'sviestakārkliņu'; iznāk 'Mouzis Sviestakārkliņš/Blusukārkliņš' - pietiekami smieklīgi un pēc krodzinieka izklausās)

Captains of the West. Translate.
Rietumu Vadoņi

Corsairs. Translate. They are imagined as similar to the Mediterranean corsairs: sea robbers with fortified bases.
korsāri, pirāti

Cotton. This is a place name in origin (as are many modern surnames), from cot, a cottage or humble dwelling, and -ton, the usual shortening of 'town' in place names (Old English tûn 'village'). It should be translated in these terms.
It is a common English surname and has, of course, in origin no connection with cotton the textile material, though it is naturally associated with it at the present day.
Hobbits are represented as using tobacco, and this is made more or less credible by the suggestion that the plant was brought over the Sea by the Men of Westernesse (I 18); but it is not intended that cotton should be supposed to be known or used at that time. Since it is highly improbable that in any other language a normal and frequent village name should in any way resemble the equivalent of cotton (the material), this resemblance in the original text may be passed over. It has no importance for the narrative. See Garngee.
Damis ('dams'='nams', tikai vecāka forma)

Cotman appears as a first name in the genealogies. It is an old word meaning 'cottager', 'cot dweller', and is to be found in larger dictionaries. It is also a well-known English surname.
Damnieks

Iesūtīja: saule ; laiks: 19.10.2005 10:48

IMHO tas ir ''cibric'' un nekad nav dzirdēts, ka ar to apzīmē brieža lēcienu, kas atiecas uz ''bric-'' es paskatījos tildes vārdnīcā - izskatās, ka tas drīzāk nozīmē bārties.
Āpšalnieks vai vēl var būt Āpšalietis būtu latviskāks par Āpšalu (bez tam locījumā sanāk drīzāk Āpša ala)
Man Butterbur tilde iztulkoja kā tūsklape, kas diezgan labi atbilst dotajam aprakstam

Manuprāt krodziniekam atbilstu ''Miestiņš'' vai kas tamlīdzīgs, varētu būt arī Miezītis (iešāvās prātā mieža grauds par miežiem domājot )

Iesūtīja: Mattiass ; laiks: 19.10.2005 12:48

Ak dievi, Baginss tiešām nosaukts par Tuntaku? Kāda juoda pēc?! Šitā izvarots GP… būs vien pašam beidzot mūsu tulku nedarbs jāizlasa… tad jau sanāk, ka pirmais Hobita tulkojums bija daudz labāks par otro, un GP vispār, izskatās, vajadzētu atkārtoti pārtulkot un izdot. Ar visiem pielikumiem un normāliem apzīmējumiem.

Iesūtīja: The Lord of The Ring ; laiks: 20.10.2005 14:29

Patiesiibaa nedriixt tulkot Vaardus... nosaukumus un visaadas citas vietas.... var tikai veidot latvisko locijumu... piemeeram... ASV viena no pilseetaam ir Michigan... un to laviski izloka kaa Mičigana... un tas arii vis... nedriixt piemeeram uzvaardu Underhill.. paartulkot par kaut kaadu pakalnu! .. vai kaa tamliidzigi... tas vienk ir apkaunojums valodai... arii vietu nosaukumus nemaina.. un objektu nosaukumus nemaina.... [ir dazhi iznjeemumi piemeeram juuras red sea... sarkanaa juura..un klusais okeaans .. ] taatad ja jau tolkiens ir devis vietai nosaukumu Shira .. tad taa arii tam ir jaabuut! ....

Iesūtīja: saule ; laiks: 21.10.2005 08:39

IMHO ja autors ir ieteicis tulkot tad ir jātulko, bet ir jāievēro autora ieteikumi tulkošanā

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 21.10.2005 12:48

Nē, ja Tolkīns ir uzrakstījis īpašus ieteikumus sava darba tulkošanai, tad tulkojot ir jāvadās pēc šiem noteikumiem. Tieši šo noteikumu fragmentus es pašlaik lieku šajā pavedienā!

Nākamie:

Dark Lord, Dark Power. Translate.
Tumsas pavēlnieks, Melnie spēki (der)

Dead, The. Translate.
Mirušie

Dunlendings. Leave unchanged except in the plural ending. It represents Rohan dun(n)lending, an inhabitant of Dun(n)land.
krēslieši

Easterlings. Translate, as 'Easterners, men from the East' (in the story men from the little known regions beyond the Sea of Rhun).
Aizrītu ļaudis (der)

Elder Kindred, Elder Race, Elder People. Translate. In a language which possesses two forms of the comparative of old, use the more archaic form. (In English the older form elder implies both seniority and kinship).
       The similarity between Elda-r plural, the western Elves, and Elder is accidental. The name Elda 'Elf' had been devised long before Vie Lord of the Rings was written. There is no need to seek to imitate it; it is not useful or significant. Compare Elder Days, which again implies a more ancient epoch in the history of people of the same kin, that is in the days of their far-off ancestors.
Vecajie, sencilts, senļaudis (der) (nepatīk salikteņi. Labāk rakstīt atsevišķi: senie ļaudis, senā cilts)

Iesūtīja: saule ; laiks: 21.10.2005 13:17

Neder vis - izklausās pēc krēsliem un aizrīšanās

Iesūtīja: Good ol' Grim ; laiks: 21.10.2005 15:23

Krēslieši jau nu neder vis. Ja teikts, ka netulkot, tad netulkot - značit Danlendieši.

Aizrītu ļaudis arī ne. Pārāk spēcīgas asociācijas ar aizrīšanos. Labāk palikt pie Austrumnieki, vai kā tamlīdzīga.

Iesūtīja: undomiel ; laiks: 22.10.2005 10:29

Kāds man nevarētu pateikt, no kā ir dabūti tie Meškoviči-Tuntaki? Man ir tikai 3. grāmata angliski, bet to vēl neesmu izlasījusi, jo tagad cīnos ar The Silmarillion. Esmu lasījusi GP tikai latviski. Pētīju gan index, bet neatradu. Kas tie par Meškovičiem? Tas skaitās latvisks vai varbūt anglisks vārds?

Iesūtīja: anonymus_II ; laiks: 22.10.2005 10:41

Nezinu, no kurienes tulkotaaja "dabuuja" M-T, bet domaati tie taa kaa buutu Sekvili-Baginsi (Sackville-Baggins, ja nemaldos.) Man "Meshkovichs" nesaistaas ne ar anglju, ne latvieshu valodu, driizaak jau ar moskvichu...

Iesūtīja: saule ; laiks: 22.10.2005 11:14

Man liekas, ka Meskoviči viņi bija jau hobitā

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 22.10.2005 11:27

Nē. "Hobitā" (pirmais izdevums Zanes Rozenbergas tulkojumā) viņi ir Sekvilli-Baginsi.
Meškoviči? Tas ir domāts kā parodija par poļu panu uzvārdiem, kurus viens otrs, lai izklausītos smalkāks, pievienoja savam īstajam uzvārdam. Šie Bilbo radinieki par visām varītēm grib būt smalkāki kā citi, tāpēc viņi savam uzvārdam pievienojuši otru vārdu. Lai tas izklausītos "kārkluvāciski", pareizāk "kārklupoliski", tulkotāja ir izvēlējusies vārdu Meškoviči. mešok=maiss, kule, tarba. Ut tas tīšām nav ne latviešu, ne angļu vārds.

Nē. Autrumnieki viņi nav pilnīgi un galīgi. Itin kā mums ar vārdu austrumnieks uzreiz neasociētos kaut kas līdzīgs tam, kas GP ir Dienvidnieki - tie, tumšie, arābiem līdzīgie, kas, vispār, ir ienaidnieki. Šie te tādi nav, izlasi aprakstu!

Iesūtīja: saule ; laiks: 22.10.2005 12:25

Tie no austrumiem tie ļaunie, tie jau arī asociējas ar arābiem...

Paskatīsimies - viņi varētu būt arī austrumzemju ļaudis, rīta, ausmas vai pat lēktu puses ļaudis, tā vietā lai aizrītos. Kāpēc tur vajag aiz- priekšā likt ?

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 22.10.2005 12:46

Tas ir sens saliktenis. Tāpat kā Aiz-saule - aizsaule. Vieta, kas ir kaut kur "aiz". Ko var darīt, ja "rīti"(austrumi) kādam asociējas tikai ar "rīt"?

Iesūtīja: saule ; laiks: 22.10.2005 13:22

ais-saule ? viņi taču nav miruši ?

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 22.10.2005 14:46

Nē. Bet kāpēc Tu tā domā, ka viņiem noteikti jābūt mirušiem?
Viņi nav no aiz-saules, bet no aiz-rītiem, no zemēm, kas ir tālu Austrumos, un kas ir citiem ļoti maz zināmas.
Vārdu Aizsaule lieto arī tādas vietas apzīmēšanai, kas ir tik tālu un nezināmā vietā, ka ceļš uz turieni nav zināms. Variants - Austrumos no Saules, Rietumos no Mēness. Tas skan ļoti ģeogrāfiski precīzi, vai ne?

Iesūtīja: saule ; laiks: 22.10.2005 15:19

Tas teksts IMO nāk no skandināvu pasakām ne no latviešu. Bet austrumus var visādi apzīmēt un aiz- varēja pielikt citam vārdam, ne ja rīts ar rīšanu asociējas, bet tieši šī kombinācija un manuprāt pār- būtu piemērotāka salikteņa pirmā daļa

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 22.10.2005 16:41

Jā, no skandināvu. Bet Tolkīns ļoti izmantoja skandināvu mitoloģiju. Nevis latviešu. Ja runa par latviskojumiem, tad tulkošanas ieteikumu ievadā ir teikts, ka tulkotājs drīkst iedomāties, ka hobitu zeme ir tā, kur viņš mīt pats, un attiecīgi tulkot vietvārdus. Tāpēc Lielupe tur nemaz nebūtu nepareizi. Un citas zemes ir citas zemes. Un attiecīgi ir izmantojami kaimiņzemju vārdi un vārdu saknes.

Iesūtīja: varoniz ; laiks: 23.10.2005 20:48

Hobits ir pilnīgs Tolkina izdomats tēls, hobiti nav minēti nevienā no mitoloģijam.

Iesūtīja: saule ; laiks: 23.10.2005 20:54

hmm, doma bija, ka ja runa ir par latviskumu kāpēc mēs runājam par skandināvu pasakām... bet pār- ir latviska sākuma zilbe - piem. pār-novadnieks.

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 24.10.2005 13:49

Un kur es teicu, ka ir? Runa ir par vietvārdiem un to tulkošanu vai netulkošanu un, ja tulko, tad kā.

Nākamais bariņš:

Elf friend. Translate. It was suggested by Aelfwine, the English form of an old Germanic name (represented for instance in the Lombardic Alboin), though its analysable meaning was probably not recognized or thought significant by the many recorded bearers of the name Aelfwine in Old English.
Elfu draugs (der)

Elven smiths. Translate. The archaic adjectival or composition form elven used in The Lord of the Rings should on no account be equated with the debased English word elfin, which has entirely wrong associations. Use either the word for elf in the language of translation, or a first element in a compound, or divide into elvish + smiths, using an equivalent in the language of translation for the correct adjective elvish.
       With regard to German: I would suggest with diffidence that Elf, elfen are perhaps to be avoided as equivalents of elf, elven. Elf is, I believe, borrowed from English, and may retain some of the associations of a kind that I should particularly desire not to be present (if possible): for example those of Drayton or of A Midsummer Night's Dream (in the translation of which, I believe, Elf was first used in German). That is, the pretty, fanciful reduction of 'elf' to a butterfly like creature inhabiting flowers.
I wonder whether the word Alp (or better still the form Alb, still given in modern dictionaries as a variant, which is historically the more normal form) could not be used. It is the true cognate of English elf; and if it has senses nearer to English oaf, referring to puckish and malicious sprites, or to idiots regarded as 'changelings', that is true also of English elf. I find these debased rustic associations less damaging than the 'pretty' literary fancies. The Elves of the 'mythology' of The Lord of the Rings are not actually equatable with the folklore traditions about 'fairies', and as I have said (III 415) I should prefer the oldest available form of the name to be used, and left to acquire its own associations for readers of my tale. In Scandinavian languages alf is available.
Elfu kalēji (der)

Enemy, The. Translate.
Naidnieks (der) (derētu pielikt priekšā ie-)

Ent. Retain this, alone or in compounds, such as Entwives. It is supposed to be a name in the language of the Vale of Anduin, including Rohan, for these creatures. It is actually an Old English word for 'giant', which is thus right according to the system attributed to Rohan, but the Ents of this tale are not in form or character derived from Germanic mythology. Entings 'children of Ents' (II 78) should also be unchanged except in the plural ending. The Grey-elven (Sindarin) name was Onodrim (II 45).
ents, enti

Evenstar. As title of Arwen Undómiel. When used in the text this translation of Undómiel (a Quenya name) should be translated.
Vakarzvaigzne

Iesūtīja: Good ol' Grim ; laiks: 24.10.2005 15:05

Par šiem nav īsti ko piebilst. Varbūt vien kārtējais mēģinājums pārtaisīt GP par bērnu grāmatu atņemot vārdam ienaidnieks absolūti nepieciešamo priedēkli. Vēl tikai vajadzēja par "naidinieku" viņu nosaukt un būtu vispār kā no pasakas.

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 25.10.2005 08:20

Tam es ne visai gribu piekrist, ka senāku vārdu lietošana noteikti bērnišķotu saturu. Nē, manuprāt, šādu vārdu lietošana, protams, īstajā vietā, ir vajadzīga, lai piešķirtu attiecīgo noskaņu. GP, manuprāt, ir tāds, kā lai saka, episks varoņstāsts? Un tādiem piestāv zināma senlaicīguma pieskaņa arī valodā. "Naidnieks" ir viens no tādiem vārdiem.

Nākamie:

Fairbairns. Translate. It is an English surname, a northern variant of the name Fairchild. It is used by me to suggest that the elvish beauty of Elanor, daughter of Sam, was long inherited by her descendants. Elanor was also remarkable for her golden hair; and in modern English fair when used of complexion or hair means primarily blond, but though this association was meant to be present in the minds of English readers, it need not be represented.
Labknauķi (šausmīgi nievājoši un bērnišķīgi izklausās; viņus jau par gauži skaistiem uzskatīja...; labāk "Zeltmate" un "zeltmaši")

Fair Folk. The beautiful people (based on Welsh Tylwyth teg ' the beautiful kindred' = fairies). Title of the Elves. Translate.
Gaišļaudis (kaut kā neasociējas ar elfiem; ieteikums: 'dīvļaudis') (Atkal samocīts saliktenis. Varētu pat teikt Baltie ļaudis)

Fallohide. This has given difficulty. It should if possible be translated, since it is meant to represent a name with a meaning in the Common Speech, though one devised in the past and so containing archaic elements. It is made of English fallow + hide (cognates of German falb and Haut) and means 'Paleskin'. It is archaic, since fallow 'pale, yellowish' is not now in use, except in fallow deer, and hide is no longer applied to human skin (except as a transference back from its use of animal hides, used for leather). But this element of archaism need not be imitated. See III 414 on the relation of special hobbit words to the language of Rohan.
Smalksti (no kurienes tāds tulkojums, ja te ir runa par palsu, gaišu ādas (spalvas, kažoka) krāsu?, ja zirga spalva, tad, šķiet, laucis bija gaišdzeltens, bet varbūt arī nē, mājās nebija nevienas grāmatas, kur būtu zirga krāsu vārdi )

Fang. A dog's name in I 101; translate. It is meant of course to be the English fang 'canine or prominent tooth' (Old English fengtôþ; German fangzahn); but since it is associated with Grip, the sense of the now lost verb fang, I should think that German Fang would be a good version.
Ilknis (der)

Fatty Lumpkin. Translate. The kin is of course a diminutive suffix.
Mika, “tauku pika” ("Tauklodīte")

Iesūtīja: Good ol' Grim ; laiks: 25.10.2005 09:05

Naidnieks vai naidinieks imo vienkārši neskan labi, ja to lieto kā īpašvārdu.
Lai vai kā - nākamie ir visai sarežģīti.

Labknauķi - Vienkārši drausmīgi. No paskaidrojuma redzams, ka "fair" ir lietojams nozīmē "skaists" un vārdnīca saka priekšā, ka "bairn" skotiski ir "bērns". Tad kāds tam sakars ar labiem knauķiem, kas man asociējas ar Santa Klausa elfiem?
Lāga nezinu kā lai vārdu skaists/daiļš iekomponē saliktenī. Tādas perversijas kā "daiļbērni" jau nu nevajag. Vispār vārda "bērni" vietā vajadzētu kādu apvidvārdu, diemžēl nevienu tādu nezinu.

Gaišļaudis - ko īsti nozīmē piedāvātais "dīvļaudis"? Lai vai kā, šie ļautiņi nav nekādi leduslāči - "fair" atkal tiek lietots nozīmē "skaists", kā jau teikts paskaidrojumā. Tādēļ vajadzētu "Skaistie ļaudis", vai ko līdzīgu, bet katrā ziņā divos vārdos - bez liekiem salikteņiem!

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 25.10.2005 09:20

Naidnieks te nav īpašvārds.

Dīvs/dīva - senāka forma no skaists+prasmīgs. Vēl ar tādu apakšnozīmi kā "brīnumains", "apbrīnojams". Tā kādreiz mēdza saukt lieliskus operdziedātājus u.tml., kam bija gan laba balss, gan labs izskats un aktiera dotības. Tagad tā vietā saka "zvaigzne", lai arī zvaigzne ir pārejošāka īpašība. Dīva ir un dīva paliek, vienalga, uzstājās vēl jeb nē.

Iesūtīja: Good ol' Grim ; laiks: 25.10.2005 09:36

Diez kas tad? Index apstiprina manu pārliecību, ka the Enemy ir Saurons.

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 25.10.2005 09:38

Ja runa par Sauronu, tad piekrītu, ka Ienaidnieks ir labāk

Nākamie:

Fellowship of the Ring. Translate in the text; also if possible in the title.
Gredzena brālība (der)

Fierny. A name in Bree. Translate. Fern and Ferny, Fernie are English surnames, but whatever their origin the name is here used to fit the predominantly botanical names current in Bree.
Paparde

Firefoot. Translate.
ne jausmas, kur tas ir grāmatā, bet ja tas ir Brilas augveidīgais uzvārds, tad 'Ceļteka' vai 'Ceļmallapa'

Firstborn, The. Title of the Elves. Translate. ('Firstborn', since the Elves appeared in the world before all other 'speaking peoples', not only Men, but also Dwarves, of independent origin. Hobbits are of course meant to be a special variety of the human race).
Pirmdzimtie

Fladrif, See Leaflock.
Fladrifs, tas ir elfu vārds, ko netulko, nozīmē "kokāda"

Flourdumpling. Translate.
Miltubunga

Free Folk; Free Lords of the Free; Free Peoples. Translate.
brīvie ļaudis

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 25.01.2008 09:34

Gamgee. A surname found in England, though uncommon. I do not know its origin; it does not appear to be English. It is also a word for 'cotton wool' (now obsolescent but known to me in childhood), derived from the name of S. Gamgee (died 1886), a distinguished surgeon, who invented 'Gamgee tissue'. In a translation it would be best to treat this name as 'meaningless', and retain it with any spelling changes that may seem necessary to fit it to the style of the language of translation.
Ekušeks (var palikt, ja nav labāku priekšlikumu) (?Gandžijs ?Gamdzis)

Gamling (the Old). A name of one of the Rohirrim, and best left unchanged, though like one or two other names in Rohan (Shadowfax, Wortntongue) it has been slightly anglicised and modernized. It should be Garrieling (with short a) It would be one of the words and names that hobbits recognized as similar to their own, since it is an English (that is, Common Speech) name, probably the origin of the surnames Garrilen, Gam(b)lin, and other forms. Compare The Tale of Gamelin, a medieval poem from which ultimately was derived part of Shakespeare's As You Like It. (It is derived from the stem gamel- 'old', the normal word in Scandinavian languages, but only found in Old English in verse language, and in Old High German only as an element in personal names).
Gamlings Vecais vai Gamalings Vecais

Goatleaf. A Bree name of botanical type. It is an old name of the honeysuckle or woodbine. Compare French chevrefeuille (medieval Latin caprifolium, probably from the vernaculars). It presents no difficulty in German, since Geissblatt seems one of the names in use.
Sausserdis (der)

Goldberry. Translate by sense.
Zeltodziņa (der)

Great Enemy. Translate.

Grey Company. Translate.
pelēkie pavadoņi, ja militāri, tad vienība

Greyhame. Modernized form of Rohan grçg-hama 'greycoat'. By name in Rohan of Gandalf. Since both Grçghama and Greyhame would probably be unintelligible in a language of translation, whereas at least the Grey- is meant to be intelligible to readers, it would be right, I think, to translate this epithet: that is, to represent Éomer as translating its sense into the Common Speech (II 37). So the Dutch version has correctly Grijsmantel; but the Swedish wrongly gråhamn 'grey phantom'. In German it might be Graumantel?
Pelēkais Mētelis vai Miglasmētelis vai Pelnumētelis

Grey Host. Translate.
Pelēkais Karapulks

Grey Pilgrim. Another by name of Gandalf, translation of Mithrandir. It should be translated by sense.
Pelēkais Ceļinieks

Grip. Dog name. Translate. See Fang.
Ķeris (der)

Grubb. A hobbit name. (Grubbs, I 36, is plural). Translate, if possible in some way more or less suitable to sound and sense. The name is meant to recall the English verb grub 'dig, root, in the ground.'
Rīmaks (kāds sakars ar rīšanu? ar bedrīšu kašņāšanu gan! iesakām 'Rušķis')

Guardians. Translate.
Sargi

Iesūtīja: Hobbits ; laiks: 25.01.2008 15:21

milziigs sakars ar riišanu. Grubb visbiežākais tulkojums ir kaa ēdmaņa, uzkožamais, ēdiens.(sarunvalodā) visi tulkojumi:
grub [grab]
Angļu - latviešu vārdnīca
I  n

1) 
kūniņa
II  v

1) 
uzrakt

2) 
izlauzt (celmus); izrakt (up)
 
3) 
urķēties; rakņāties
 
4) 
ēdmaņa; ēdiens



bet Rukšķis kaut arii visaadaa ziņā vispaar atbilt gandriiz visiem tulkojumiem, tomeer izklausaas ka tā kaadu rupji sauc aizmuguriski.
Katraa ziņā Rīmaks manupraat izklausaas ideaali. lieta taada ka te laikam tas domaats par rakņaašanu...bet kurš teica!??

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 25.01.2008 15:55

Tas skaidrojums aiz tulkojamā vārda vai vārdkopas ir Tolkīna paša ieteikums Ja viņš saka, ka tas ir no "verb grub 'dig, root, in the ground', tad tā tas arī ir, neskatoties uz vārdnīcu dotām kaut simts citām nozīmēm.

Halfling. Common Speech name for Hobbit. It is not actually an English word, but might be (that is, it is suitably formed With appropriate suffix). The sense is 'a half sized man / person'. Translate with similar invention containing the word for 'half' in the language of translation. The Dutch translation used Halfling (presumably an intelligible derivative of half, though not in use in Dutch any more than in English).
niekaudži

Harfoots (plural). Meant to be intelligible (in its context) and recognized as an altered form of an old name = 'hairfoot', that is, 'one with hairy feet'. It is supposed to represent archaic English hær-fôt later herfoot, with the usual change of er to ar in English. Modern English hair, though related, is not a direct descendant of Old English hær, hçr = German Haar. German Harfuss would adequately represent the form, meaning, and slight change of spelling in an old proper name. See Fallohide.
Pinkupekas (der)

Harry (from Herry from Henry). Any popular man's name of a similar sort will do.
Harijs (Āris - similar sort will do )

Hayward. Translate. A local official with the duty of inspecting fences and keeping cattle from straying (see I 19). The word is now obsolescent, surviving chiefly in the very common surname Hayward; but Hob (III 277, 279) was supposed actually to be a hayward. The word is derived from hay 'fence' (not 'grass') + ward 'guard'. Compare High Hay, Hay Gate, Haysend, place names in Buckland. If the language of translation possesses an old compound of similar sense, so much the better. The Dutch translation used Schutmeester (which is very close: 'keeper of a pound or fenced enclosure'.) The Swedish used stängselvakt 'hedge watch', which I think is made for the purpose.
Žogmeistars

Healer, The Healers. Translate,
Dziednieks

Heathertoes, A Bree name. There is no parallel in English, though Heather appears in some surnames. The Dutch translation has Heideteen. For German Heide- (Presumably a joke of the Big Folk, meaning that the Little Folk, wandering unshod, collected heather, twigs and leaves between their toes).
Pekuvirsis (der)

Hobbit. Do not translate, since the name is supposed no longer to have had a recognized meaning in, the Shire, and not to have been derived from the Common Speech English, or the language of translation).
Hobits (der)

Holman. An English surname; but here supposed to 'holeman' (pronounced the same). Translate by this sense.
Kašelis

Hornblower. Hornblow and Hornblower are English surnames. In the Shire they are evidently occupational Surnames. Translate by sense.
Pūtelis ('pūtelis'='ķīselis', bet te ragu pūšanu vajag! Ragpūtis vai Taurieši)

Iesūtīja: Hobbits ; laiks: 25.01.2008 15:57

woops..kameer laboju(rediģēju) atbildi par ilgi rakstiiju un ...lai nu paliek te turpinaajums:

nu bet protams - Tolkiins

Katraa ziņā Rīmaks manupraat izklausaas riktiigi peec hobita. lieta taada ka te laikam tas domaats par rakņaašanu...vispaar paldies par šitiem pielikumiem...tulkotaaja rokasgraamatas...lietas...vai kas nu tas ir!

gruuti izdomaat vispaar... - riimaks, - nav pareizais tulkojums....urkņa..k-kaads degunurbinaataajs vai?...rukšķis - kurš cilveeks taa uzdrošinaajaas kaadu apvainot!..lol..............kašņaataajs - to labaak suniitim atstaat par vaardu.......raveetaajs....pa prastu bet k-kas atvasinaats no šitaa dereetu...bet sinoniimu tam vaardam nav..............kašņātaajs...ka suns vai vista :/.......rakņātaajs.....itkaa allaž netiiraam rokaam vai pat garnadzis nav viegli, bet imteresanti katraa ziņā! vismaz man,



Un kas visiem pret Tuntaku! Kad es izlasiju sapratu ka Baginss, taatad - bag(soma)...latviski paaršaavu domaas paar visiem sinoniimiem ko zinu un uzreiz izleca - tuntala. skaidrs ka soma, un es uzreiz taisni izdomaaju ka labi iztulkots. Ne jau katrs sinoniims ir vaardniicaa ierakstiits. pat vecais pilniigi visiem zinaanaamais vaards taša/tašiņa nav ielikts vaardniicaa. jo tas luuk no vaacu valodas naak!
ja kas man liekas ka arii vaardu satuntuļot ( ieviistiit) visi zin. Katraa ziņaa katrs kurš beerniibu nodziivojis virtuvi saukdams par ķēķi, bet seerkociņus par špickaam, zinaas veel dažu labu vaardu
Tuntaks iederas hobitijiigajaa stilaa, un manupraat - der



liels vai varens ienaidnieks. kur gan probleemas ar tulkojumu nezinu. laikam izlaidi

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 25.01.2008 16:09

Nē, neizlaidu Tiem vārdiem, kam nav nekādu problēmu, tulkojumi nav doti. Priekš kam, ja tāpat skaidrs?

Isengrim. See III 413: 'In some old families, especially those of Fallohide origin such as the Tooks and the Bolgers, it was ... the custom to give high-sounding first names'. The name is an old Germanic one, perhaps best known now as the name (Isegrim) adopted for the Wolf as a character in the romance of Reynard the Fox. It is best left untranslated since it is not supposed to be made of Common Speech elements.
Izengrīms (der)

Leaflock. Translate by sense, since this is supposed to be a Common Speech translation of the Elvish Finglas: fing 'lock of hair' + las(s) 'leaf'. Similarly the Ent name Fladrif, translated as Skinbark.
Sproglapa

Maggot. Intended to be a 'meaningless' name, hobbit like in sound. Actually it is an accident that maggot is an English word meaning 'grub', 'larva'. The Dutch translation has Van der Made (made = German Made, Old English maða 'maggot'), but the name is probably best left alone, as in the Swedish translation, though some assimilation to the style of the language of translation would be in place.
Untums (te ir tas vārds, kuram nav lasīts paskaidrojums, bet paņemta 4 nozīme no vārdnīcas; iesakām 'Māgans')

Marigold. Translate this flower name (see III 413). The name is used because it is suitable as a name in English and because, containing 'gold' and referring to a golden flower, it suggests that there was a 'Fallohide' strain (see I 12) in Sam's family - which, increased by the favour of Galadriel, became notable in his children: especially Elanor, but also Goldilocks (a name sometimes given to flowers of the buttercup kind) who married the heir of Peregrin Took. Unfortunately the name of the flower in the language of translation may be unsuitable as a name in form or meaning (for instance French souci). In such a case it would be better to substitute the name of some other yellow flower.
The Swedish translator solved the difficulty by translating the name as Majagull and adding Ringblom (Swedish ringblomma 'marigold'; compare German Ringelblume). The Dutch translator was content with Meizoentje 'daisy'; which is good enough. He did not include the genealogies in his translation, and ignored the fact that Daisy was the name of a much older sister of Sam and not a playmate of Rosie Cotton.
Zeltziedīte (vispār jau kliņģerīte vai samtene, bet tur nav zelts vai vismaz saulīte pieminēta)

Mugwort. A Bree name; the name of a plant (Artemisia, French armoise, akin to Wormwood, French armoise amère). Translate by the name of the plant in the language of translation (for example German Beifuss) if suitable; or by the name of some other herb of more or less similar shape. There is no special reason for the choice of Mugwort, except its hobbit like sound.
Vērmelis (der)

Necromancer. Translate.
Melnais Mags

Neekerbreekers. Invented insect name; represent it by some invention of similar sound (supposed to be like that of a cricket).
Rīkļurāvēji (protams, tie knišļi hobitus ēda nost, bet viņus visvairāk kaitināja skaņa; varianti: 'tie džinkstoņas', 'tie džinkstošie nāvēkļi', 'čirkstaņķi', 'džinkstaņķi')

Noakes. Adapt this to the language of translation or substitute some suitable name in it of similar style. Noake(s), Noke(s) is an English surname, derived probably from the not uncommon minor place name No(a)ke, from early English atten oke 'at the oak'; but since this is no longer recognized, this need not be considered. The name is in the tale unimportant.
Ķērnis (der)

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 29.01.2008 09:19

Oldbuck. See Brandywine, Brandybuck. The buck is derived from a personal name Buck, in archaic form Bucca (III 368, year 1979). The first name Gorhendad (I 108) should be left unchanged. It is a Welsh word meaning 'great-grandfather'; the reason for giving the folk of Buckland Welsh names or ones of similar style is given in III 413 4.
Vecbricis (der)

Oliphaunt. Retain this. It is an archaic form of ‘elephant’ used as a ‘rusticism’, on the supposition that rumour of the Southern beast would have reached the Shire long ago in the form of legend. This detail might be retained simply by substituting O for the initial E of the ordinary name of the elephant in the language of translation: the meaning would remain sufficiently obvious, even if that language has no similar archaic form. In Dutch olifant remains the current form, and so is used by the translator, but with loss of the archaic colouring. Oliphant in English is derived from Old French olifant, but the o is probably derived from old forms of English or German: Old English olfend, Old High German olbenta ‘camel’. The names of foreign animals, seldom or never seen, are often misapplied in the borrowing language. Old English olfend, Old High German olbenta, are probably ultimately related to the classical elephant (Latin from Greek).
Olevants vai olefants. (olevants ir vecākā forma no elefants, kam pirmais burts ar o aizstāts)

Orald. Forn and Orald as names of Bombadil are meant to be names in foreign tongues (not Common Speech) and should according to the system be left unchanged. Forn is actually the Scandinavian word for '(belonging to) ancient (days)'. All the dwarf names in this tale are Norse, as representing a northern language of Men, different from but closely related to that of the Rohirrim who came from the other side of Mirkwood (see III 410, 415). Orald is an Old English word for 'very ancient', evidently meant to represent the language of the Rohirrim and their kin. It may be left unchanged; but since it is the exact counterpart in form and sense of German uralt, this might well be used in a German translation.
Oralds un Forns

Orc. This is supposed to be the Common Speech name of these creatures at that time; it should therefore according to the system be translated into English, or the language of translation. It was translated 'goblin' in The Hobbit, except in one place; but this word, and other words of similar sense in other European languages (as far as I know), are not really suitable. The orc in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, though of course partly made out of traditional features, is not really comparable in supposed origin, functions, and relation to the Elves. In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures. It should be retained.
Orks (der)

It should be spelt ork (so the Dutch translation) in a Germanic language, but I had used the spelling orc in so many places that I have hesitated to change it in the English text, though the adjective is necessarily spelt orkish. The Grey elven form is orch, plural yrch.
I originally took the word from Old English orc (Beowulf [line] 112 orc-nass and the gloss orc = þyrs 'Ogre', heldeofol 'hell devil'). This is supposed not to be connected with modern English orc, ork, a name applied to various sea-beasts of the dolphin order.

Pickthorn. A Bree name; meant to be 'meaningful'. Translate.
Dadzis

Pimple. An opprobrious nickname. Translate.
Suņanagla (citādi 'pūtīte' ir par daudz mīlīgi)

Proudfoot. A Hobbit surname (it is an English surname). Translate.
Dižumpekas (der)

Puddifoot. A surname in the muddy Marish; meant to suggest puddle + foot. Translate.
Ķepuks (un kur tad norāde uz peļķēm vai vismaz slapjumu? 'Plunčpeka')

Quickbeam. Ent. This is a translation of Sindarin Bregalad 'quick (lively) tree'. Since in the story this is represented as a name given to him because he was (for an Ent) 'hasty', it would be best to translate the name by a compound (made for the purpose) having this sense (for example German Quickbaum?) It is unlikely that the language of translation would possess an actual tree name having or appearing to have this sense. Quickbeam and Quicken are actual English names of the 'rowan' or 'mountain ash'; also given to the related 'Service tree'. The rowan is here evidently intended, since 'rowan' is actually used in Quickbeam's song (II 87).
Ašdziets (nekā nesanāca jel kāda vārda saistība ar pīlādžiem, šķiet latviešiem vispār nav neviena koka, kas būtu asociēts ar ātrumu)

Iesūtīja: Mattiass ; laiks: 30.09.2012 16:16

Pārlasīju pavedienu no sākuma un nosecināju, ka ne visur esmu mierā ar tulkojuma vai Rovielas variantiem, vai arī esmu mierā, bet spēju iedomāties arī citu, vai arī īpaši gribējies nokomentēt. Reku saraksts (ar manu tulkojuma variantu, kaut, protams, nekāds valodu eksperts neesmu):

Appledore — Āboltiņš
Baggins — Maišelnieks
Banks — Krasts (Grima piedāvātais), vai Krastainis
Barrow wight — miroņrēgi der, bet kapu rēgi arī der. Pēc idejas, kurgāns ir kapukalns. Tātad kapi iederas.
Big folk, Big people — Lielie ļaudis, pievienojos Grimam. Mierīgi var iedomāties, kā niekaudži (iepatikās šis apzīmējums), ieraudzījuši sev līdzīgos cilvēkus, iedēvē šos par milžiem vai milzeņiem. Un cik tad tālu pieklājīgāka forma lielie ļaudis?
Bolger — Bolgers (Grima piedāvātais). Bolgs neder — tā sauc citu tēlu.
Bracegirdle — Jostvilcis, Jostsavilcis
Brandybuck — Brandibuks. Buckland — Bukava, Bukzeme (Grima piedāvātais)

Fairbairns — Daiļzelti
Fair folk — Skaistie ļaudis (atkal jau Grims), skaistļaudis. Dīvļaudis neskan. Viņi jau bija skaisti, tie elfi, fair tā arī būtu jātulko.
Fallohide — Bālģīmji. Kādā vispār kontekstā šis vārds parādījās? Attiecībā uz ļaudīm vai zirgiem?
Fatty Lumpkin — Tauciņš Piciņš
Free folk — brīvļaudis

Gamgee — Ekušeks drīzāk nē. Gandžijs?
Grip — Kampējs
Grubb — Raknis
Hayward — Žodznieks
Necromancer — Nekromants (bet Melnais Mags arī labi skan, pirmā Hobita tulkojuma versija, kur vispār daudzas lietas bija ļoti labi iztulkotas)
Oldbuck — ja Brandibuki, tad Vecbuks
Oliphaunt — olefants tad drīzāk, no latviešu valodā dažkārt pieminētā elefanta un oli- vārda sākuma

Pimple — Suņanagla ir trāpīts desmitniekā
Puddifoot — Plančpeka

Iesūtīja: Aiva ; laiks: 30.09.2012 19:36

Fallohide — Bālģīmji. Kādā vispār kontekstā šis vārds parādījās? Attiecībā uz ļaudīm vai zirgiem?

Viena no trim hobbitu pasugām:

Iesūtīja: Mattiass ; laiks: 30.09.2012 19:57

Tiešām bālģīmji.

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 01.10.2012 09:15

Ring wraiths. This is a translation of the Black Speech Nazgûl, from nazg 'ring' and gûl, any one of the major invisible servants of Sauron dominated entirely by his will. A compound must be made out of suitable elements in the language of translation that has the sense of 'ring wraith' as nearly as possible.
Gredzenrēgi (der)

Rumble. The name of an old hobbit woman. It had no meaning (at that time) in the Shire. A form of similar pattern to suit the language of translation will suffice.
Ramble

Sackville Baggins. Sackville is an English name (of more aristocratic association than Baggins). It is of course joined in the story with Baggins because of the similar meaning in English (= Common Speech) sack and bag, and because of the slightly comic effect of this conjunction. Any compound in the language of translation containing elements meaning (more or less) the equivalent of sack / bag will do.
Meškovičs-Tuntaks (nepatīk mums mājiens uz poļiem... uz vāciešiem vēl varētu; iesakām 'Tašeni-Kuldaki') (Atgādina krievu valodas vārdu. To noteikti nevajag) (Nevajag “-ičus”! Pie viena kāds ko nelāgu saskatīs. Latviski ir Maišelis vai Maišelnieks.)

Iesūtīja: Beppo ; laiks: 01.10.2012 10:39

Kaut kāds kārkluvāciski skanošs vārds skanētu vislabāk, ja nu Tolkīns vēlējis tulkot Baginsu. Ar klasisko izskaņu -ings? Kulings neizklausās jauki. Tarbings? Mēs taču varam pa visiem izdomāt foršu tulkojumu!

Iesūtīja: echo3 ; laiks: 01.10.2012 13:31

Pēc ilgām un dziļām pārdomām es laikam tagad uzvārdu "Baggins" tulkotu kā Somnieks. Tā, vienkārši. Citādi veidojumi ar latviešiem populārām galotnēm nav tik forši - Somiņš, Somītis, Somulis un tamlīdzīgi.

Iesūtīja: Mattiass ; laiks: 01.10.2012 18:38

Somnieki un Maišelnieki-Somnieki?

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 04.10.2012 08:43

Scatha. This is Old English ('injurer, enemy, robber') and so is from the language of Rohan and should be left unchanged.
Skasa

Shadowfax. This is an anglicized form of Rohan (that is Old English) Sceadu faex 'having shadow grey mane (and coat)'. It does not actually occur in Old English. Since it is not Common Speech, it may be retained, though better so in a simplified form of the Rohan name: Scadufax. But since in the text this name has been assimilated to modern English (= Common Speech), it would be satisfactory to do the same in a Germanic language of translation, using related elements. Fax 'hair' is now obsolete in English, except in the name Fairfax (no longer understood). It was used in Old High German (faks) and Middle High German (vahs, vachs), but is, I believe, also now obsolete; but it could be revived in this name, as it is in the English text: for example Schattenvachs? Fax (faks) is still in use in Iceland and Norway for 'mane'; but 'shadow' has no exact equivalents in Scandinavian languages. The Dutch version has Schaduwschicht (shadowflash), the Swedish Skuggfaxe.
Kāvuguns, Blāzma, Rītablāzma, Krēslaskāvs

Sharkey. This is supposed to be a nickname modified to fit the Common Speech (in the English text anglicized), based on orkish sharkû 'old man'. The word should therefore be kept with modification of spelling to fit the language of translation; alteration of the diminutive and quasi affectionate ending ey to fit that language would also be in place.

Shelob. Though it sounds (I think) a suitable name for the Spider, in some foreign (orkish) tongue, it is actually composed of She and lob (a dialectal English word meaning 'spider'; see Bilbo's song in chapter VIII of The Hobbit). The Dutch version retains Shelob, but the Swedish has the rather feeble Honmonstret.
Šeloba

Iesūtīja: Mattiass ; laiks: 04.10.2012 10:29

Scatha — Skata

Shadowfax — Izskatās, ka šo varētu tulkot līdzīgi kā Bēris, Bērītis, Pelēcis, Baltiņš un tamlīdzīgus vārdus. Ēnis vai Ēnītis

Iesūtīja: Beppo ; laiks: 04.10.2012 12:32

Shadowfax — Sirmītis? Ēnsirmis? Man patīk Mattiasa doma pieturēties pie zirgu latviešu vārdiem.

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 26.02.2014 15:46

Shirriff(s). Actually a now obsolete form of English sheriff, 'shire officer', used by me to make the connection with Shire plainer. In the story Shirriff and Shire are supposed to be special hobbit words, not generally current in the Common Speech of the time, and so derived from their former language related to that of the Rohirrim. Since the word is thus not supposed to be Common Speech, but a local word, it is not necessary to translate it, or do more than accomodate its spelling to the style of the language of translation'. It should, however, resemble in its first part whatever word is used to represent Shire see this entry).
Hobicisti (dalnieki, daliennieki) (Asprātīgi, bet man nepatīk. Varbūt par daloņiem vai daloņām nosaukt (no Shire/Dalienas)?)

Skinbark. English (= Common Speech) translation of Fladrif. The name should therefore be suitably translated by sense. (Compare Leaflock).
Kokāda

Smallburrow. A meaningful hobbit name; translate by sense.
Maztupali (der)

Snowmane. A meaningful name (of King Theoden's horse), but (like Shadowfax) translated into modern English form, for snâw mana. It should therefore be represented by its proper Roban form Snawmana, or translated (especially into a Germanic language), as for example German Schneemahne.
Baltkrēpis

Stoors. The name of a third kind of hobbit of heavier build. This is early English stor, stoor 'large, strong', now obsolete. Since it is thus supposed to be 2 special hobbit word not current in the Common Speech, it need not be translated, and may be represented by a more or less 'phonetic' spelling according to the use of letters in the language of translation; but an archaic or dialectal word of this sense would also be acceptable.
Platperi (der)

Swertings. Said by Sam to be the name in the Shire for the legendary (to hobbits) dark skinned people of the 'Sunlands' (far south). It may be left unchanged as a special local word (not in the Common Speech); but since it is evidently a derivative of swart, which is still in use (= swarthy), it could be represented by some similar derivative of the word for 'black / dark' in the language of translation. Compare Swarthy Men, the Common Speech equivalent (III 73).
Ogelieši

Iesūtīja: Mattiass ; laiks: 26.02.2014 18:50

Nu te ir pārcentušies tulkotāji.

Par hobicistiem — idiotisks apzīmējums, vai, pareizāk, tāds, kādu viņiem būtu devuši cilvēki, nevis viņi paši. Te, par nožēlu, nav skaidrs, kādas vadlīnijas bija pašas Shire tulkošanai — kāpēc Daliena? GP filmu subtitros to, piemēram, bija saukuši par Šīru. Un, ja reiz Šīra, tad šīrifi izklausās atbilstoši.

Platperi — tas ir neko neizsakoši. Dižeņi vai stipraiņi (vai kas cits aptuveni tādā garā) būtu atbilstošāk.

Ogelieši — tas pats. Līdzīgs oglei? Ne pārāk. Toties liek domāt, ka zemi, no kuras šie nāk, sauc par Ogelu (kā nav). Tumsnaiņi drīzāk.

Iesūtīja: Roviela ; laiks: 28.02.2014 13:32

Thistlewool. Translate by sense.
Dažpūka (der)

Took. Hobbit name of unknown origin representing actual Hobbit Tûk (see III 415). It should thus be kept and spelt phonetically according to the language of translation. The Took personal names should be kept in the form and spelling of the text, as Peregrin, Paladin, Adelard, Bandobras. Note that Bandobras' nickname 'Bullroarer' is in Common Speech and should be translated by sense (if possible alliterating on B ). This nickname also appears in Bullroarer Took in The Hobbit 17. I believed when I wrote it that bullroarer was a word used by anthropologists for instruments that made a roaring sound, used by uncivilised people; but I cannot find it in any dictionaries.
Tuks (der)

Treebeard. Translation of Fangorn. Translate by sense.
Kokabārda, Fangorns (elfiski)

Twofoot. Translate by sense.
Divpeka (der)

Underhill. Translate by sense.
Pakalns (Paugurnieks)

Wandlimb. =Fimbrethil, of which it is not a translation. Translate by sense. (An Entwife's name).
Žāklīte = Fimbretila

Whitfoot. Translate by 'white' and 'foot'. See Whitfurrows under place-names.
Spricis: Will Whitfoot -Licis Spricis (Vilis Bālpeka vai Baltpeka)

Windfola. = 'Wind foal', but leave unaltered since it is in the language of Rohan (not Common Speech).
Vindfola = 'Vējkumeļš'

Wingfoot. A nickname; translate by sense: 'winged foot'.
Spārnkājis

Wormtongue. 'Modernised' form of the nickname of Gríma, the evil counsellor of Rohan: wyrm tunga 'snake-tongue'. Translate by sense.
Odžmēlis, varbūt vēl glodeni var izmantot

Woses. This represents (modernised) the Rohan word for 'old men of the woods'. It is not a purely invented word. The supposed genuine Rohan word was wâsa, plural wâsan, which if it had survived into modern English would be woses. It would have been better to call the 'wild men' woodwoses, for that actually occurs in Old English wudewâsa, glossing 'faunus, satyrus, savage men, evil creatures'. This word survived into the Tudor period as woodoses (often corrupted to woodhouses), and survives in heraldry, since a woodhouse = a wild hairy man clad in leaves, common as a supporter to arms. The wâsa element meant a forlorn or abandoned person, and now - for instance in German Waise and Dutch wees - means 'orphan'. The origin of this idea was no doubt the actual existence of wild folk, remnants of former peoples driven out by invaders, or of outlaws, living a debased and savage life in forests and mountains.
Vosi, mežļaudis

Iesūtīja: Mattiass ; laiks: 01.03.2014 15:47

Dadžpūka?


Kokbārdis


Pakalnis


Baltpeka ir tuvāks domātai nozīmei. Vilis Baltpeka.